O.K., So...
I was told in my comments that there are people who go to Missoula to shop.
To shop for what?Enquiring minds want to know! I started this because I am interested in how other people think about development in Great Falls. You are not going to insult me by expressing your views. I have thrown out a few things and am mulling a few more over. Lets get into this. How is Petsmart better than Petco? I would love a Red Lobster. Olive Garden-do we have a decent Italian restaurant here? Lowes chose
not to come here a few years ago, because competition would likely drive out another home improvement retailer. SMG is actually running the Fairground like a business and doing fairly well. (Delete scathing remark on how taking a money making enterprise away from the city can cause it to make money. Oops, where is that dang delete button.) A commenter mentioned my stretching the bounds of reality about WalMart. Exaggerating to make a point I say. Maybe I am batshit crazy, you tell me. But will a second Wally World keep your wife from driving to Missoula to shop?
19 Old Comments:
No, a second Wal-Mart by itself will not keep my wife from going to Missoula to shop. It might however bring in someone from Sun River, Simms or Augusta, and these additional shoppers will need to eat while in town which might help justify an Olive Garden. When people are deciding which city to shop in they factor in offerings, price and access. What the 2nd Wal-Mart immediately improves is access. My wife will only grocery shop at our current Wal-Mart early in the morning because of over capacity crowds at the GF store. Late afternoon shopping takes place at Albertsons even though the price is higher. If we lived midway between Missoula and GF and she was deciding which town to do the weekly grocery shopping at, a second Wal-Mart would make GF more attractive because of access. Missoula’s poor layout and bad traffic could be offset by our current Wal-Mart’s full parking lot and long checkout lines. Great Falls is a regional retail center and needs to respect the concerns of consumers outside of the city limits.
I think the real solution is for city government to lay out a general plan for growth that envisions the city at populations of 60K, 80K, 100K etc. and lays out zoning with this vision in mind. What infrastructure, retail centers, parks and schools will we need? Instead our growth has been spastic and poorly planned. Look at Market Place, with our current population it immediately suffered from traffic congestion, has limited potential for growth, poor access for most of the community and took valuable retail energy from other potential sites that are more accessible and could sustain substantial continued growth (like the new Wal-Mart site). After the plan is laid out who cares which retailer builds. The city should only be involved in the macro-management of the plan not the micro-management of which store is worthy to open here. Local entrepreneur or major chain as long as they are operating within our collective vision, good luck to them.
See, that wasn't so hard. Problem, solution. Anyone else?
I agree norseman and the only reason I am discussing Missoula is because it was presented as an alternative to Gt. Falls not having the stores and things people wanted.
And I still want to know, what things do people buy in Missoula they cannot get here?
I'll go you one better, Wolfpack. Instead of a plan, how about a shopping/retail district? The City aquires the land, subdivides it, puts in the infrastructure, and puts out a "For Rent" sign? Amortize the return over 50 years. It still wouldn't cost a fraction of the down payment on the power plant.
I guess I disagree with you a bit about Marketplace. There is still room for growth, and I am not sure what you mean by traffic congestion.
But I would suggest that this entire discussion is misplaced. Retail, schmetail. If we continue to add jobs in our economy that bring dollars into our community, there will be plenty of retailers who are willing to build stores here designed to take them back out.
I sat down to really think of the reasons why I used to go to Missoula, Helena, Bozeman or BIllings to "shop". It was alot about the different stores (most of which are gone from the other places or we have now) and the trip out of town for the day.
I still like to escape but it seems I do not do it for the shopping (except to Lincoln for jerky)I now prefer to find a quiet place to relax and enjoy my family and Montana.
When we are looking at building Great Falls it should be a balanced build- both retail and business that offers jobs above minimum wage. We need longterm growth that will sustain our population and attrack people to us for more than just the "shopping experience."
I agree with the Norseman as well. I've lived in several towns around Montana in my lifetime, and except for Billings, it seems like just about everywhere people go shopping in other towns no matter which stores are in their own. I've driven all the way to Bozeman a couple of times before to buy a couple of $3.00 parts from the hobby shop that nobody had here in Billings. I could have just ordered them, but what would the fun be in that?
wolfpack, do you own stock in Wal-Mart, or are you just a Wal-Mart groupie?
Now now Justin, no personal stuff here. If I start insulting people you may feel free to join in, until then, this is an adult conversation. :)
ME?! INSULT PEOPLE?! I'm apalled that you would even think me capable of such a thing fire fly. I was poking a little fun. ;)
GeeGuy,
Your retail district idea is exactly the kind of visionary leadership I was talking about. Someone has to see the big picture and set up the rules of the game so that we all win. It’s a lot more efficient infrastructure wise to co-locate retail business and that is what consumers want also. It’s easier to drive to one location with several competitive businesses and either price shop or compare similar items across the offerings of different stores without having to drive to the four corners of town. Proof of this synergy lies in the fact that competitors often co-locate in the same shopping area and .
About Marketplace in particular, other than behind Home Depot where else is left to expand for a large retailer (Costco, Best Buy or Kohl’s)? As it stands today Marketplace is one of the most awkward shopping centers to get to. The exit is often backed up all the way to the interstate; most of us have to pass thru Fox Farm and tenth (busiest intersection in town?) and the interior road layout of Marketplace is confusing to the newcomer. It also has limited traffic handling capability because it is fed by a single two lane road that is almost dead end in functionality. When was the last time you saw any major retail center not on a 4 lane road? The reason most retail centers look alike is because it works. The city should have guided the Marketplace developers to build somewhere else or insisted better integration with the interstate. Instead they jerked around some potential tenants over the appearance of their roof mounted air conditioners and such until they pulled out of negotiations.
I agree good jobs are a priority. A desirable retail sector does help in recruiting new employees and therefore new employers. The more sought-after the prospective employee the more discerning they can be about the community in which they choose to live. Just having availability of things you want to buy somewhere in town is not good enough. You shouldn’t have to live here for years in order to know where to shop for what. A top notch invasive cardiologist would bring millions in trickle down dollars to GF (even our heart attack patents are leaving town to shop for care). The end goal being; more good jobs that pay enough for Joe 6-pack to move out of the trailer, pay off his court fines and buy a nice home to raise his kids. Because of the extra money he’s making he also won’t be forced into shopping at Wal-Mart to get by. I think we all would call this a win-win solution to the discussion. I don’t look to retail as the supplier of good jobs but as the bait required to attract good employers, whose employees will require more than GF currently has to offer.
Justin, I’m sure your wife’s spent years trying to make you carry on adult conversation and failed, so stick to your guns and don’t let Firefly cajole you into it.
"I agree good jobs are a priority."
Well, my good friend wolfpack, we all know that large retail stores like Wal-Mart provide "good jobs", now don't we?
I really think that you should quit hiding behind your annonymous profile and get a blog of your own wolfpack, that way I would have a forum in which to respond to your final dribblings without soiling my own or fire fly's. My conversational skills are no concern of yours. You'll do yourself a better service to worry about your own conversational skills, you must keep them sharp after all, that way you'll continue to be able to BS your employees into believing that you can't afford to pay them any more than you do. I'll laugh hysterically when one of these big chain stores succeeds in running YOU out of business. Hopefully your employees find better jobs, and YOU wind up working at Wal-Mart, that would be justice.
Update to prior post… I was wrong there is one spot left in Marketplace between the theaters and Furniture Row. I’ve been in Helena for the kids swim meet and while catching up on the Tribune after getting back home I spotted a statement from Macerich in the “GF Outlook 2006” insert. They say they have an interested party but are not disclosing the name yet.
As mentioned by others, I am an employer and am at risk of a major retailer/chain upsetting my apple cart. This means that I am not just blowing hot air about what others should do while having no horse in the race of my own. I intellectually do not fear the big guys, emotionally though it’s hard not to fear an uncertain future. If business tanks, for me it’s not as easy as just hitting the local job service for a new job and have life go on as usual. A good business person will adapt and look to make a living in the margins where the big guys can’t maneuver. My wishes for GF revolve around growing the size of the pie not fighting over the relative size of my slice. For GF to turn the corner on economic development there are going to have to be some changes and someone is going to be hurt. The aggregate benefit to the community though will far out way the pain to a few. Living life being jealous of others making more than you can lead to some really bad outcomes especially in business. You’re better off worrying about what your customers want and not about how to game the system so your competition can’t open up.
This discussion is about GF and anyone who takes anything said and tries to apply it to some other local should start over at the beginning and read the intro. Thanks Firefly for maintaining the adult format and giving this customer no reason to shop somewhere else or start a forum of my own.
Wanna grow the size of the pie wolfpack? Prove it. Give your own employees a raise so they'll have more money to put back into said pie. You have an advantage and an opportunity that the big guys don't have, your business is local. The money that moves through your business stays in GF, at least until you or one of your employees spends it at Wal-Mart. The money that moves through the big boys doesn't stay in GF, except for the pittance that they give to their employees, and therefore doesn't help the GF economy at all. Oh sure, a lot of the people that come to town to shop will spend a few bucks at a burger joint or possibly even a locally owned restaraunt, after they send several hundred dollars to Bentonville. I'd buy your "trickle down" theory at least to a point if you were talking about a manufacturer, but not a retail store like Wally World. How about a Costco? At least they pay their people a decent wage and offer benefits, or would they steal too many of your employees too?
Justin, You don't understand a word I’ve said. Put aside your disdain for anyone that employs and open your mind to different points of view. Here is a link to Dave’s site that is my way of thinking in action http://www.greaterfalls.com/?p=252 . Read the Trib article linked by Dave and you will see that Wal-Mart is said to be partly to blame for a labor crunch that is driving up wages in GF. The new Wal-Mart is expected to make GF wages rise even higher. I realize you are from Billings and have little knowledge of GF (not that it stops you from purporting to have the answers) but GF is what we are talking about. The labor pool is subject to the laws of supply and demand just like any other traded commodity. You may not like or understand economic theory but most of the developed world has gone to the free market system. Wal-Mart does not set wages the market does. Go out and start your own business by mortgaging your car and home. Hire your own employees and pay them what you claim will. You’ll get a quick lesson in how small a percentage profit is compared to other expenses. Very little of what you pay at the cash register ends up in the owners pocket as profit whether the owner is local or not. It’s easy to tell someone else how to spend their money and run their business. I’d be happy to do as you ask with your money; I’ll even share the bump in my numbers if it materializes. Just let me know when you are ready to put your money where your mouth is.
You can continue with the un-educated sarcastic trailer trash shtick you cloak yourself in or engage in a real discussion and actually respond to what has been said. I do not have any particular interest in Wal-Mart nor do I suggest it as a career field. I just don’t believe they are the devil ruining this nation (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/05/AR2005090501598.html). They have become a target of the left for their non-union stance and vilified for many things that have little to do with the non-union origin of the angst. They should be subject to the same laws as any other company, not singled out for singular regulation. This thread is supposed to be about what’s wrong with GF, got any other suggestions other than me personally funding GF’s renewal?
Nope, no suggestions at all, you just keep up the good work. And whatever you do, don't look at history at all. Don't talk to anyone that remembers what it was like to live in this country when big companies had a spirit of nationalism, and actually took pride in supporting American workers. If you did, you'd only be depressed, because those days are gone my friend, and thanks to the teminally ignorant, they ain't ever coming back either.
I like going to Great Falls simply because of the very lack of "renewal", it's one of the few places left where a person can have a good meal in a mom and pop cafe, or stay in a clean, comfortable, privately owned motel for a reasonable price, or shop in a store that doesn't send all of its money overseas. Go ahead and "renew" away, then it'll be the same as everywhere else, big money leeches on every corner, sucking up money and sending it out of town. People can find that anywhere, it won't make Great Falls special, it'll just make Great Falls just like everywhere else.
I'm coming a bit late to this party. At the risk of disturbing the argument between Justin and Wolfpack, I would like to inject a slightly different perspective.
Why do people from Great Falls go to Billings or Missoula and spend dollars there? It almost certainly has little to do with a particular store, or a particular restaurant (even if Jade Palace is fabulous).
It has more to do with other reasons for the trip. You might have a meeting or a seminar in Missoula. Myself, I do quite a bit of shopping in Billings. Why? St. Vincent's Health Center.
Let me explain. There is a specialist at St. Vincent's, associated with the hospital there, that treats a member of my family (nothing earth-shaking, but thanks for the concern -- no worries.) There are two such specialists in the State; one at the hospital in Missoula and one in Billings. Therefore, for the four times a year checkup, we bundle in the car and spend the day in Billings.
When we take the trip to Billings, we do a bit of shopping and eating out. Would I make the trip to Billings just to go to Costco or Best Buy? Absolutely not.
So, what is the moral of the story? How we keep retail dollars in Great Falls has less to do with our stores than it does with the greater economy. Give people valid reasons to go to Great Falls and they will shop here. One manufacturing plant is more important than all the Costco's, Best Buy's and Bed Bath and Beyond's in the world.
Aaron, you've yet to be a "disturbance" in my experience, your views are always laden with common sense, and this one is no exception. You've said basically what I was "trying" to say, you just happen to have a much better way with words.
I would like to add, however, that you've proven yet another point. Attracting more medical facilities to the area would probably go farther to promote the GF economy than attracting another big box store. I'm sure that you aren't the only one that makes a trip or four a year to Missoula or Billings for medical care. A population of people with the ability to pay their medical bills, ie-good jobs with health insurance, is going to do far more to attract more medical professionals to GF than Wal-Mart.
As a side bonus, there are lots of "non-professional" jobs related to health care that also pay relatively well for mostly unskilled workers, you don't have to be a doctor to benefit from the health care industry.
Justin;
Thank you for the kind words.
While medical facilities can attract economic growth from our region, alone they are not the answer. At the end of the day, Great Falls is a regional center for Northcentral Montana, and not any farther. Unless you are a Rochester, MN (Mayo Clinic), you can not bring in "primary sector" dollars based on medical care. A good medical specialist may keep Havre resident from driving to Missoula, but won't do much more than that.
A manufacturing plant or factory, however, will bring in out of state dollars and sustainably grow our economy. And yes, with a few more plants like Pasta Montana and the barley malting plant, we probably will "get" a Red Lobster.
This is kind of a chicken egg argument. I have not disputed that retail jobs are NOT what GF needs more of. We are already very underemployed. It is also no great revelation that we need more high paying jobs. The problem is how do we freshen up our community so that we look like an attractive place for these new high paying industries to move to. The people we have to sell our town to are not the factory workers but the management team (and their spouses) who will run the plant. This level of labor is very discriminating and has many options when it comes to where to live and work. We all know that there are plenty of people here already with potential for all levels but the top jobs require someone who is already skilled for the position and able to hit the ground running. This discussion spawned from a new Walgreens and 2nd Wal-Mart. Some feel there is no need so the city should stop the projects in their tracks; some just hate anything big and corporate, some just hate Wal-Mart period and some (me included) think we should welcome the growth and just need to make sure it happens smartly. Running the city is kind of like running a business. You borrow and plan now to remodel/freshen up your business in order to attract customers. You don’t wait until you have more customers to plan for higher business levels and pay for the remodel. The customers may never come to your poorly planned and run down store, if your competitors down the street did the former. My main point is not that these new stores bring us new or good jobs but that if done right they help make new good jobs more possible.
Aaron, you're definitely right about the manufacturing, I think I mentioned that in an earlier comment. Manufacturing is the key to the whole thing, unfortunately, the entire nation could use a good dose of it, not just Great Falls. The United States used to be the global center of manufacturing, but thanks to "all things large and corporate", that isn't the case anymore. We are now a nation of consumers and the simple problem with that is, we can only consume for so long without producing something to take the place of that which is being consumed before the tank runs dry and there is no longer anything left to consume. Wal-Mart is by far not the only company at fault, but they are the most visible, and unfortunately the one most often copied by other companies that have started down the same path. When that path reaches its end, a lot of people will find out just how expensive "low prices" can be. Believe me, we'd be a lot better off paying a dollar or two more for an item, than having all of our manufacturing jobs sent to China as with the current trend.
Wolfpack, I see that we fundamentally disagree on this issue, and I have no reason to believe that we won't continue to do so in the future, but I have to admit that I have little knowledge of what manufacturing businesses look for in terms of where to expand or relocate. If I had to venture a guess I would figure that it had a lot to do with tax structure, available utility services and their costs, and available potential workforce as well as how viable the location was from a transportation standpoint, ie-is it located centrally enough to make shipping the goods produced in an efficient manner possible. I would never put forth the possibility that it had a single thing to do with whether or not the upper management types would have sufficient shopping opportunities in the immediate area, nor in a million years would I guess that most upper management types shop at Wal-Mart, but that's just me, what the hell do I know about business right?
Whatever happens, I hope it all works out in the end in a manner where everyone profits, especially the small businesses that some of us see as far more important than global corporations. Yes wolfpack, even yours.
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